The only good thing about this site is the sources and the chart debunk ignore the writing its shit
I'm a neut exclus. If you saw this site a year ago: My bad. Im not editing the rest of the site i dont care enough to
another good argument for why gender is biological and not socially influenced is the case of david reimer, man who was raised as female because of a botched surgery and still experienced crushing gender dysphoria despite being raised on estrogen and puberty blockers
if you disagree with me i dont care im exhausted have a nice dayyyyyy
a lesbian is a woman that is emotionally, romantically, and/or sexually attracted to only women. i use "or" because of aromantic/asexual lesbians, not because of bi "lesbians"/mspec "lesbians."
i dont think you're going to be surprised that this is just gonna be about lesbians being women that love women. its come to my attention that dictionary definitions aren't useful in identity discourse, and what's really useful is historical context, so im going to provide that.
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the origin of "lesbian," came from sappho, of lesbos. sappho regularly made poems based off of her attraction to women. this was around 600 BCE, plus or minus 30 years. theres also this poem from the 1800's about sappho + being attracted to women. while not including the word lesbian, this does show sapphism, which is intrinsically related to lesbianism.
the next mention of "lesbian," is found here, in reference to the first nationally distributed american lesbian magazine, "the ladder," : "by 1956, the term "lesbian" had such a negative meaning that the DOB refused to use it as a descriptor, choosing "variant" instead." (variant being the term that freud used for female homosexuals.) there is no context given for the usage of the word beforehand, and theres none i can find, but we know for sure that by 1956, "lesbian," positive or not, was in peoples vocabularies. the ladder was a lesbian newspaper. it is reinforced here in older publications. and it always spoke about women. even if the term non-binary didnt exist, theres no mentions of them saying "female or feminine people," or "female or ones that align with female," because they do not apply. the same way they spoke of she/her women. not they/its women, or "butches that are disconnected from femininity that use he," there was nothing like that. the only mention of lesbians that used he/him would have been ones that didnt want to be attacked or hate-crimed.
in the article provided that is from the older publications, they do reinforce lesbians being women.
theres also "the furies," from 1972. again, supporting that lesbian = women = she/her [or any pronoun set with she, if you want to nitpick]. theres "the woman identified woman," from 1970, which is the first source at the bottom, and arguably the most important.
nothing about being non-binary, nothing about attempting to use pronouns as a sort of gender non-conformity, nothing. people that identify as non-binary + they/he lesbians are not backed up by history, which is the backbone of identity politics. there are no historical non-she/her or non-woman lesbians that havent arose within the last 20 or so years. you cant rewrite history, you cant make those things valid.
"theres no terms for non-binary people that are attracted to women./theres no terms for women attracted to women and non-binary people."
> i dont think anyone actually says this because trixic has been beaten into every inclusionist's brain so many times its exhausting but in case someone really believes this · · · ↴
sapphic: women attracted to women and nonbinary people.
feminamoric: nonbinary people attracted solely to women.
trixic; nonbinary people attracted to women and nonbinary people. (can be exclusive or non-exclusive)
enbisian/neptunian: nonbinary people (fem/non-aligned) attracted to (fem/non-aligned) nonbinary people and women. ⁽ * ⁾
and if you dont like how they "sound?" thats tough, you can just go by nblw/wlw + nb.
"not including non-binary people in all sexualities is enbyphobic."
> not including binary trans people in all sexualities would be transphobic, because every sexuality includes a binary gender (other than nblnb). but the same way gay people arent misogynistic for being attracted to women, people arent enbyphobic for not being attracted to n-b people. the non-attraction doesnt come from a place of disgust, or dehumanization. (ex. straight men "not being attracted to trans women") it comes out of a place of literally zero attraction. if society erased every speck of transphobia, all straight men would easily date transgender women, but you cant change peoples brains to include a whole 'nother thing in their sexuality. sexuality isnt a choice. if i had a choice, i would be attracted to non-binary people. the more people, the better ! but i cant force myself to date a n-b person and "grin through the pain," the same way i cant force myself to date a woman. why would a non-binary person even want to date me, i cant be attracted to them.
also, lesbian + gay are monosexualities. non-binary people arent men and they arent women. to assume theyre included in binary sexualities is denying their gender, which is actual enbyphobia. you cant pick and choose which n-b people are included in these sexualities, its all or nothing. you being non-binary and identifying as a female/male doesnt negate the enbyphobia, the same way the existence of transgender terfs doesnt make them automatically make them right. you can be a bigot despite whats you are/identify as.
"identifying as a lesbian gives me comfort."
> now here is an instance that a definition would actually be useful, because this isnt only identity discourse anymore. label: "a word or a phrase that is used to describe the characteristics or qualities of people, activities, or things". labels dont contradict. they arent for comfort either. usually you would find pride in your labels, but even if you dont, that doesnt negate the label. a mentally-ill person is still mentally-ill, even if they dont like how the word sounds. if they were meant to contradict, there would be no need for them. taking away the meaning makes the word absolutely useless. if you find comfort in non-women terms (ex. they/them only, he/him only, he/they only, non-binary), yet also find comfort in the term lesbian, i see no way that the comfort wouldnt be attributed to internalized misogyny. or maybe, in a rare case, internalized transphobia. either way, theres an underlying issue you're avoiding that won't be solved by using a wlw exclusive term.
"[something about stone butch blues.]"
> pretty weird to tell a minor to read a book with rape in it but okay. its a work of fiction, and its one that i do not care about. its a useless "source." take renzezz's analysis and debunk wooo yeah
back
gay [when not equaling lesbian] is a term for men that are emotionally, romantically, and/or sexually attracted to only men. i use "or" because of aromantic/asexual gays, not because of bi "gays"/mspec "gays."
going to make the exact same point here, gay = male = he/him.
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the first known use of the word "gay," was used in the 12th century. it meant joyous or brightly colored. there were a lot more micro definitions, but those arent too relevant.
later, around the 1500's, gay became a term for human sexuality. "gay women" were prostitutes and "gay men" were womanizers. "gay houses" were brothels. actual gay people were referred to as homosexuals, as of the 19th century. homosexuality was seen as a curable disorder of the mind. in maybe the 1950's, gay men started using the word "gay" so heterosexuals didnt know what they were talking about, a sort of code word.
"By 1955, the word gay now officially acquired the new added definition of meaning homosexual males. Gay men themselves seem to have been behind the driving thrust for this new definition as they felt ... that “homosexual” is much too clinical, sounding like a disorder ... it was common amongst the gay community to refer to one another as “gay” decades before this was a commonly known definition (reportedly homosexual men were calling one another gay as early as the 1920s). At this time, homosexual women were referred to as lesbians, not gay. Although women could still be called gay if they were prostitutes as that meaning had not yet 100% disappeared." and since then, when not including women, "gay," is now a term for exclusive mlm attraction.
in all of the early/influential gay works, it specifies love towards men. not masculine people. even when non-binary was developed as a term, neither gays or lesbians rewrote that they were now included. the only sexuality that stated that they include non-binary people is bisexuality, specifically the bisexual manifesto with its lines about not seeing bisexual as wholly binary, and also saying "do not assume there are only two genders."
bisexual is a term for people who are attracted to people regardless of gender, with attraction to at least two genders. it can have a lean/preference, or it can not.
there isnt any need for mspec microlabels like pansexual or omnisexual or polysexual because it's all bisexual in the end. it wouldnt be an issue if these microlabels werent harmful [ie. graysexual is a harmless microlabel, albeit fairly useless], but these labels (especially pansexual) contribute to bisexual misinformation, erasure, and a hint of transphobia as well.
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firstly im just going to stick this in here because i can: i dont really think that LGBT = SGA + GD [same gender attraction + gender dysphoria] for the sole reason that some bisexuals dont have SGA [bisexual men that are attracted to women + n-b people/bisexual women that are attracted to men + n-b people]. maybe same gender attraction, multiple gender attraction, and gender dysphoria is a better way to put it.
the meaning of pansexual depends on who you talk to. some say that its bisexual without a preference for a gender, and last week i was told that "bi is two, pan is all, pansexuals are attracted to non-binary and transgender people," which is is brimming with transphobia, enbyphobia, and biphobia how bad can someone get.
text
panamoric discourse is silly to me just go to #panamoric on instagram and youll see what im talking about its just diet pannie. i like how the creator was thinking though, good job whoever you are.
here is the main/first mention of pansexuality:
"Welcome! XD
...Anyway, this community is for pansexuals, as described in the userinfo. Pansexuals love people of all genders, male and female, but unlike bisexuals, pansexuals love transgendered, androgynous and gender fluid people, people who don't fit into the categories of male or female. People such as J-Rockers, like the two men on the community icon. Pansexuals come in all shapes and sizes, all sharing one common goal, sexual freedom."
because we all love transphobia and biphobia. yeahh i dont think i need to explain but . Trans Men Are Men and Trans Women Are Women saying otherwise is Transphobic and Idiotic do i need to say more. and why are j-rockers and androgynous people included that has nothing to do with gender, this doesnt even make sense.
heres another thing from 1995:
yeah, ~ biphobia ~
reminder that the bi = two line is a fallacy btw. some people say that the "bi-sexual" part of bisexual is supposed to be wholly literal, like attracted to both sexes which would encompass all genders, and some people say that the "bi" was just a product of a less-inclusive time that didnt realize non-binary people existed, and that the definition changed with new information [which it did !], but either way *bi includes everyone under the trans umbrella THIS NEEDS TO BE UPDATED SORRY
this...is a shitshow. the 2002 source 1) says that bisexual people cant love transgender people, which is false. bisexual people can and do love trans people, and the assumption that it doesnt is biphobic and transphobic. 2) androgyny is not a gender, its a gender expression. no need to segregate it. 3) j-rocker? like the people that like japanese rock??? really???
the second source is bad too. "there are at least three [genders] if you discount my transgendered friends." its not cute to segregate trans people.
and same as the first source, its biphobic and describes bisexualiy. "bisexual impies there are only two genders" 1) its debatable whether there are more than two because many people say that non-binary isnt a third gender, and 2) this is a fallacy.++
sexuality is who you are attracted to, not "how," or "under what conditions." if i am attracted only to people within a 2 year age range of me, does that make me a new sexuality? if im attracted to introverts, does that make me a new sexuality? not at all. and the difference between pansexuality and "introvert-sexual" is that the second is a useless microlabel that doesnt directly harm someone. but pansexual is rooted in bisexual erasure and transphobic ideals. its also bisexual appropriation, i believe. pansexuals took the attraction to everyone and twisted it to make it seem "more woke," when bisexuality was inclusive from the beginning.
this is an amazing website that talks about this in more detail. please read it if you are still neutral/on the fence.
not everyone that identifies as pansexual is biphobic or transphobic. but the history and the definition are. please educate yourself.
++(and before you say "oh ! appeal to definition fallacy !! aha, that means that its wrong to use the dictionary definition of lesbian !!! so i can interpret it differently to include n-b lesbians!!!" because every historical document refers to lesbian as a woman only, the fallacy is null. its historical fact. the site uses: "The dictionary definition of X does not mention Y. Therefore, Y must not be part of X." as an example "oh, x can mean non-binary !! so because the definition doesnt say 'no non-binary people,' i can use the term !!!" no <3 the definition says woman which is a contradiction to non-binary, so that argument is null. just wanted to make it clear before another flawed argument arises.)
tldr; a gay man is a man attracted to men. a non-binary person cannot be a gay man. a woman cannot be a gay man. someone attracted to women is not a gay man.
bisexual is the attraction to people regardless of gender. pansexual is a harmful microlabel rooted in biphobia, bi erasure, and transphobia.
transgender.
an umbrella term that incorporates differences in gender identity wherein one's assigned biological sex doesn't match their felt identity.
anyone that is not their AGAB (assigned gender at birth) is trans. binary trans people are trans men and trans women, non-binary ones are ,, non-binary.
source analysis.
so i wanted to get a source that is by trans people and for trans people, and specifically educated ones. doctors, neurologists, therapists, people like that. i found cpath, and its board of directors has a lot of trans people, and doctors that are experts on gender. also, james makokis, an incredibly skilled transgender doctor, was involved in cpath in the past, and is still linked to it today.
cpath, in the resources section, uses this as a criteria for gender dysphoria in manitoba.
"a feeling of “mismatch” between their expressed/experienced gender and their natal sex characteristics" and "wish to be another gender," for teens and children respectively. now, doesnt that also describe gender incongruence? meaning that they are intrinsicly connected, and are just the same thing with different connotations?
also, theres gires, based in the UK. it also has many trans people on its team, as well as educated people that have made landmarks in the community.
this very amazing resource that you should 100% read is by gires. "Very rarely, children may express this incongruence between gender identity and the genital sex," by "this," it is referring to the earlier mentioned "gender variance." and in this pdf document provided, the glossary states that gender variance, dysphoria and gender identity disorder are all synonyms. and if gender inconguence = variance...well, you see where im going with this.
there also this, that states incongruence is the disconnect and dysphoria is the discomfort, but as will be stated later on: at what line does gender incongruence equal gender dysphoria? the need for the line is useless, its all the same in the end.
q: how many genders are there?
a: depends on who you ask. people say that non-binary isnt a gender, which means there are only two, but if you believe in identities like bigender and pangender, there would be more. the general consensus is that there cant be more than 4, medically/neurologically. the exact number hasnt been studied all too much.
q: what's the deal with non-binary alignment?
a: good question.
so, you can be n-b and be feminine, masculine, or androgynous. the alternative, yet more controversial, terms woman-aligned, man-aligned, and non-aligned.
those are based off of gender expression.
alignment is controversial because it makes n-b seem like something binary, like people identifying as "non-binary women/men," which is a contradiction in itself.
you cant be half inside the binary and half not. your brain cant be half binary and half not.
--
non-binary is described as not male or female. so is gender a line or a triangle? is it just two boxes? whats going on here?
well, to say that non-binary can be on a line says that it can be a point on a triangle, which makes it a trinary.
[male] - - - - [female]
anywhere outside the boxes is non-binary. it isnt gender, it is lack of a gender, aka agender. while they can be close,
(ie.
[nb] [male] - - - - [female] )
it still does not make them binary or male, and to say so is transphobic/enbyphobic in nature.
--
q: do you need dysphoria to be trans?
a: yeah.
well i would say that you do need dysphoria to be trans because gender incongruence (something definitely 100% needed to be trans), means that you feel out of touch with your AGAB, and gender dysphoria is a feeling of distress. but if you are out of touch, doesnt that equal distress? mild distress, at least? when im disassociating, even though im feeling nothing, im still in a state of discomfort. i dont know if i make sense but the links below are really really good and explain this better than me. please please take a took, theyre very expansive !!
the explanations in here are amazing too. what im trying to say is that if you say that you need incongruence, and not necessarily dysphoria, at what point do you consider the disconnect to be distressing?
you can have any amount of dysphoria, from mild to extreme, and you are still trans !! just because the chemical imbalance in your brain is slight, doesnt mean its not there at all.
++also, when we say you need dysphoria to be trans, we mean gender dysphoria generally, not body dysphoria ! you can have light/no body dysphoria and have social dysphoria and youre trans ! same with mind, voice, height, etc. dysphoria.
and let me just add this:
some people say that because some people's disconnect is not disabling/extremely distressing for them, i want to pose this.
some things in the dsm-v are greater projections of regular things. for example, "sexual masochistic disorder." being a masochist by itself is not a disorder, but when it begins to impend on your daily life, it becomes an issue, and therefore, a disorder. so why cant the same thing be attributed to dysphoria?
the dsm-v describes dysphoria as being disabling, but most trans people describe dysphoria as not being disabling, but simply the disconnect and distress, whether physically or socially, of being your AGAB. and since i (and most of you) trust both the trans people and the medical professionals, why dont we just say that clinical dysphoria and general dysphoria are different things?
^^ i disagree with this now, due to more research into gender dysphoria. ill leave it there in case it makes sense to some people, but the dsm-v's "clinically significant" isnt what is generally discomfort. here is more on that.
sidenote: you dont need to medically transition to be transgender. all you need is the dysphoria. not being able to medically transition is okay, we know you have your reasons. being trans can be a non medical thing, "like for people who only wish to socially transition etc."
tldr; transgender is an umbrella term for binary and non-binary trans people. n-b people cant be men, the same way they cant be women, the same way they cant use the terms for binary people. you need dysphoria to be transgender, having dysphoria causes being transgender. n-b also might be lack of gender but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ not enough proof atm.
genders.
"the condition of being male, female, or neuter. In a human context, the distinction between gender and SEX reflects the usage of these terms: Sex usually refers to the biological aspects of maleness or femaleness, whereas gender implies the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of being male or female (i.e., masculinity or femininity.)"
gender is determined by the sex of your brain, to sum things up. the sex of your brain and body are usually the same, but in the case of trans people, it is not. a trans male has a male brain but a female body, for example.
gender is formed in the brain with chemicals.
gender expression.
"an individual's presentation — including physical appearance, clothing choice and accessories — and behavior that communicates aspects of gender or gender role. Gender expression may or may not conform to a person's gender identity."
gender expression is how you present. it can be feminine, masculine or androgynous, but expression isnt as rigid of a binary that gender is.
you can be a feminine male or a masculine female and none of those contradict, or reduce your gender. a feminine male and a masculine female are not lesser.
gender non-conforming is a term that is often misdefined. the definition is:
"having a gender expression that does not conform to gender norms."
"the degree to which an individual's appearance, behavior, interests, and subjective self-concept deviate from conventional norms for masculinity/femininity."
examples would be feminine men and masculine women. being gnc does not make you transgender, it simply means you have a different expression. and thats okay !
now, what things related to gender are social constructs?
gender roles -> "women are painters, men are scientists."
gender expression -> "women like skirts, men like pants."
gender stereotypes -> "women are passive, men are aggressive."
gender norms -> everything above^^
what are not?
gender [gender identity] -> state of being male, female, or non-binary.
sex -> state of being assigned male, female, or intersex at birth.
gender norms were created by society after centuries and centuries. they were created and passed down by the mind and spread through cultures. if you detach a child from society, they wont have a concept of gender norms, because they arent in the brain itself, its learned. it was made by humans.
gender and sex are made by the human body itself. the brain made gender and sex using chemicals and the endocrine system. to say that gender is socially constructed is to say that chemicals are socially constructed, which theyre not ! it is a physical thing. if you detach a child from society, they will have an innate gender, and a sex that they are born as. gender and sex are physical.
q: isnt gender a social construct because other cultures have more than two genders?
a: no ❤
to say that gender identity is a construct by using third-genders, it is incorrect [and can be a form of cultural appropriation]
they all have male, female, feminine male, masculine female, neuter, intersex. or some combination of them, including males and females every time.
feminine male isnt a new gender, and neither is masculine female. the source is already unreliable by its flawed understanding of gender in the first place. expression isnt your gender. cultures arent your talking point.
tldr: gender is the sex that your brain forms as. gender expression is physical appearance and behaviors, and are not the same as gender. gnc people exist. gender norms are socially constructed, gender and sex themselves are not.
xenogenders.
a xenogender, or neogender, is a "gender" that is not male or female. in contrast to non-binary, xenogenders are usually based off of objects, mindsets, and concepts.
these are not valid. they might be valid when used for non-human alters, but that is the only exception.
why?
well, gender is based off of the sex of the brain, which can only be male, female, or neuter. there is no xenogender brain.
q: arent xenogenders for comfort ?
a: labels arent for comfort ! they are to describe.
q: arent xenogenders for fun ?
a: while many people use it for fun, the effects that they have on the community does more harm than good. xenogenders invalidate most trans people because if these "genders" are for fun, it gives a sense to people (in particular, cishets) that being transgender is a choice, that its done because its "fun." i have had those things said to my face, and while the root cause is deep-seeted transphobia, these dont make our case any better.
q: arent xenogenders for neurodivergent people ?
a: not historically and not medically !
lets have a little history lesson.
tumblr user "baaphomett" was the first to coin xenogenders, the first cluster of them.
here is the archived link.
when clicked on the username, heres where it goes.
and when you go to the about...
see how it says "allistic" ?
heres more proof if you need it:
xenogenders were not made by nd people, they were made by non-binary allistics that didnt understand gender.
and xenogenders cant medically be used for nd people because gender doesnt work like that.
to take the definition from the ... xenogenders carrd:
"neurodivergent people interpret life and society differently. due to this, they also interpret social constructs such as gender differently. a neurodivergent person may struggle trying to find a term that fits for their gender so they take something of comfort and make a gender [identity] tied to it"
first off, gender isnt a social construct, so that argument is invalid. secondly, gender isnt dependent on comforts. same way race isnt dependent on comforts. i cant say im japanese because i like the country, you cant say youre a xenogender because you like something. both of those completely disregard definitions.
those facts also make you not ableist for disagreeing with them.
q: are xenogenders automatically trans ?
a: no ! not at all ! people have different interpretations of xenogenders. some say its for nd people, some say its for comfort, and some say its for fun. none of those have anything to do with gender incongruence or dysphoria, therefor it doesnt automatically equal trans.
also, i have seen people, in real time, tell a girl (she said she wasnt neurodivergent, and she wasnt transgender, that she was definately cis) that she could use neopronouns like princess/prinessself because xenogenders "are for fun," and ive seen many more people say that as well.
it is not inherently trans, and its harmful to say so. trans people can (debatable whether they should but oh well) identify as a xenogender, but they also need incongruence.
q: arent xenogenders harmless ?
a: they arent harmless. identifying with xenogenders is a choice, being trans/nd is not. but because xenogender users use being trans or autistic as an excuse to be that, it paints both communities in a horrible light. "trans people identify as stars!!!! fucking mental!!!" and "autistic people are so fucking weird identifying as cats and shit," are both things ive heard. and remember the "attack helicopter" jokes? the ones that stemmed out of neogenders? those made it 10x harder for me to come out because i didnt want to be bullied or made fun of. and autistic people are already painted in a horrible light by the media. infantized, portrayed as immature and naive. "dumb."
this shit sets back clocks. this makes us look bad. do your pup pronouns matter more to you than the stability of both communities as a whole?
i apologize for getting upset, but this means a lot to me. it means a lot to the neurodivergent people i know. and its sad that you just...dont seem to care.
one autistic kid on the internet making greengender isnt that problemtic, that doesnt make people transphobic. but its not one. its thousands and thousands that just have no regard or dont care enough to look. and neogenders, despite not being a giant community, are a loud minority. xenogenders are in news articles, theyre in memes, theyre easy to find on the internet. and one autistic kid on the internet isnt going to make someone transphobic, but it will, and has made people that were on the fence and uneducated a LOT less likely to support us. "yeah i respected trans people and left them alone before they thought of those 73 genders bullshit," or "idk that much about trans people but one of the first things i saw about them was a meme about identifying as a cat and...they really do that?? weird as fuck, whats wrong with them?" are things that HAVE been said and they will continue to be said until you unconventional neopronoun users, and you neogender users, just. let us live. please.
tldr; xenogenders are harmful. they mock trans and neurodivergent experiences, and arent even medically possible. ill lick your boots if you just stop using them i fucking swear-
pronouns.
"pronouns are the way they choose to be referred to according to their gender identity (= their feeling of having a particular gender)"
pronouns are gendered ! who would have thought.
q: do pronouns equal gender ?
a: well, they should. let me explain.
he/him: male
--
he/they[/neo]: masculine [can id as male or nb]
they: neuter
neo: neuter
she/they[/neo]: feminine [can id as female or nb]
--
she/her: female
(i say binary people can use neopronouns because as some use the "fun/comfort" defense, it isnt inherently non-binary.)
pronouns are gendered. if you id as a female and use feminine pronouns, you are a woman.
if you id as non binary and use feminine pronouns, you are not a woman, you are non-binary.
you cannot id as non binary and use female pronouns, as they are only for females. and you cant be a woman and only use neopronouns or they/them. you need at least one of the binary pronouns to be binary.
but do they always equal gender?
from what ive seen, the only instance that they dont is when people use all pronouns. he/her/they.
and there are two reasons for this.
1) the person is binary but does not mind being called other pronouns/being misgendered (this is gender apathy)
2) the person is nonbinary and uses all pronouns? but they cannot call themselves any binary term, despite using masculine and feminine pronouns because they arent binary.
> this has confused me for a while because i thought "wouldnt a non-binary person have dysphoria with using all pronouns?" but social dysphoria isnt the only kind of dysphoria, and i dont think its my place to judge that. but what isnt valid is saying that you are non-binary ONLY because youre gender apathetic. if you dont experience dysphoria/incongruence, you arent n-b and you arent trans.
but...just because youre comfortable with all pronouns doesnt mean you should say so ! if someone referred to me as ae/aer pronouns or voi/voir wouldnt be disgusted. i wouldnt feel dysphora, i just wouldnt care. if someone referred to me with most neopronouns i wouldnt care, but i dont go saying that im a pronoun hoarder. it also makes it seem like pronouns are a choice, and because pronouns = gender ... not the wokest move, especially for cis apathetics.
not caring about being misgendered is normal ! but dont normalize it by using all pronouns !
pronouns are not for expression, as all gnc people do not use opposite gender pronouns (tomboys, femboys, etc).
subsection of "are pronouns gendered," they/them as a pronoun.
they/them can be used in various ways.
1. as a pronoun for non-binary people
2. as a neutral pronoun for any gender
3. for multiple people
as cis people often use two pronoun sets, ex. she/they, not because they are using it as a non-binary pronoun, but are instead using it as a neutral pronoun, it waters down the use of the pronoun.
cis people are not supposed to feel discomfort with their AGAB, that is what makes them cis. and a good amount of them dont mind what pronouns you use. this is known as gender apathy. when they/them is used as 2, the user of the pronoun is binary. when used as 1, the user is nonbinary. and when used as 3, the user is probably a system, or has a tulpa.
the use of she/they and he/they pronouns muddles up the "pronouns equal gender" argument, and it is binary (usually cis, but not always), that are complicating this.
they is and has always been neutral. the only people that dont apply to this rule are people that are specifically dysphoric with "they" pronouns. which is an outstanding minority.
pronouns should equal gender. but with this one loophole, it doesnt.
but if every cis person used their AGAB pronouns, "any-pronoun" users focused on the pronouns that they are, and not what they dont mind being misgendered as, pronouns would be used as they should be.
"Generally speaking, he refers to males, and she refers to females. When a person has adopted a persona of a different gender (such as when acting or performing in drag), pronouns with the gender of the persona are used when referring to that apart from the usual identity of the person."
"This may be compared to usage of the word man for humans in general (although that was the original sense of the word "man" in the Germanic languages, much as the Latin word for "human in general", homo, came to mean "male human"—which was vir, in Latin—in most of the Romance languages)."⁽ * ⁾ and "The Massachusetts Medical Society effectively blocked membership of female physicians on the grounds that the society's by-laws used the pronoun he when referring to members."⁽ ⁾ prove that historically and grammatically, "he" is for males.
++sources list "he" as being gender-neutral in cases, but that doesnt make it gender-neutral in the sense that women can use it. it means the second way "they" is used. a neutral pronoun. and that is rare. an instance would be "all men are created equal."
+++(oh and before you start going "im a xe/xem lesbian," or "im a ae/aer gay man," because neopronoun doesnt equal non-binary ... dont 🧚♂️❤✨
neopronouns stopped being used as non-binary pronouns only* because non-neopronoun users wanted to use them to sound fancy and special. the original meanings are for non-binary people. just because binary people use neo-pronouns doesnt mean they should. same as xenogenders.)
tldr; pronouns should equal gender but the use of any/they pronouns kinda muddles this up. but they do equal gender, fundamentally.
society when people start using the correct pronouns:
neopronouns.
a lot of exclusionists will disagree here, i admit. but neopronouns are not inherently bad.
let me begin by seperating neopronouns into groups [idea taken from this post]
conventional | unconventional
conv.
> ones that do not fall under the umbrella of unconv.
> ze/hir and xe/xem would be examples.
unconv.
> emoji pronouns
> noun pronouns
> it/its
conventional pronouns are valid when used, due to
1) dysphoria with all main [she/he/they] pronouns
2) they/them having the potential to be used as a neutral pronoun instead of a specifically n-b one (ex. someone uses xe/xem pronouns because it cements xem as nb a lot more than they/them. you hear someone referred to as they/them and you cant assume their gender, but you hear someone called xe and you immediately know xey are non-binary.
sorry if this sounds weird ! im not trying to say that neopronoun users are "more n-b," either.)
unconventional pronouns are not valid. the only one that could be valid is it/its, and that is only when
1) it is used for trauma + reclamation
2) it is used for a non-human alter
why?
to exclusionists, while it may not make sense, there are people that are dysphoric with they/them. and we have to respect that ! a common statement is that "no one will use your neopronouns outside of the internet," but i disagree. if someone educates me on their neopronouns and they are conventional, ill use them.
(also please keep in mind that if you dont want to refer to people by neopronouns, referring to those people as they/them would, according to the definition, be misgendering.
use names !)
++well ive talked to a few people about being dysphoric with they/them, and now im . pretty confused. because they/them is used as a neutral pronoun, being triggered/dysphoric over it makes very little sense to most of us. it would be helpful if someone dysphoric with they/them talked to me about this so i can understand, but the way i see it, its like being dysphoric with the term "monarch," or the word "kid." those things arent gendered, so how could you get dysphoria over something...null?
and if you get triggered by something neutral and commonplace for everyone to use...maybe you shouldnt be on the internet? not to be mean, but you cant avoid people calling you that, it will always be the default. and i think that you should try and deal with your trauma with that term in a healthy way, and if theres a way to deal with that trauma without using neopronouns ... go for it !! using alternate, temporary terms for trauma isnt bad, but i think that it would be a lot better in the long run to deal with it
why not?
to inclusionists,
emoji pronouns and noun pronouns are fundamentally harmful because they align with xenogenders, which are their own problem.
please realize that this doesnt really apply to languages that dont have (a) gender neutral pronoun(s), so dont even try that argument. want to create the french form of xe/xem? go for it !
tldr; neopronouns are okay when they arent emoji/noun pronouns.
neurodivergency. (specifically, autism.)
"the word “autism” means a developmental disability significantly affecting verbal and non-verbal communication and social interaction."
q: does neurodivergency affect your gender identity ?
a: no ❤
on top of the facts stated in the upper link, theres no biological basis for this. theres no study, theres nothing. and before you say "nd people have a higher rate of gender dysphoria-"
"Autism and sexual identity may share a biological pathway, perhaps one involving sex hormones in early development. Or sexual orientation and gender diversity may be expressed more often in autism because of a decreased adherence to social conventions. Or perhaps a greater forthrightness and honesty in autism allows some autistic individuals to acknowledge feelings beyond traditional sexual orientation and gender identity categories."
i think that makes a lot more sense than saying gender is a social construct, which, you know, its not.
and a lot of the people in the sources provided said that people assumed they were transgender because of their autism, which is something that harmed them greatly and trivialized their experiences. so maybe you shouldnt use them as an excuse for your xenogenders. just kidding ! there is no maybe. stop doing it.
tldr; because gender is based in brain chemicals and not social constructs, it cant be affected by neurodivergency and there are many other reasons that the overlap between nd people and trans people are so high.
Tweets.
**for the polls, please pay attention to these facts:
poll 1:
out of 376 people, 61.4% thought non-she/her lesbians were harmful.
out of 268 people, 73.1% thought neurodiversity doesnt affect gender.
out of 180 people, 78.2% thought being trans (gender dysphoria) was a condition.
out of 133 people, 74.4% thought that pronouns equal gender.
poll 2:
out of 714 people, 57.8% said that hesbians/she gays didnt exist. but out of 716 people, only 23.3% thought that theysbians didnt exist. however because we have the percentage of cis people that voted [53%]. that low number can be attributed to that. not like every cishet cares enough to research anyways.
| L |
|---|
| A lot of the time when women identify as “disconnected from womanhood” it’s because they live in a misogynist society that constantly beats them down for being women. They might believe gender is a social construct and define womanhood by their misogynistic experiences.This is why some of these women will identify as lesbians but also nonbinary. To cope with and escape from misogynistic society and pressure on women, while still identifying in a way that makes them connected to women and their love for women. These cis women are confused. This is just one example of the nonbinary version of cis people invading the trans community; or for lack of a better term, “trans trenders”. And the harm they are doing to the nonbinary community needs to be acknowledged. Enbies shouldn’t be scared of calling people out. They go through a valid struggle, but these women, while victims of society and misogyny, are not completely innocent. It takes conscious decision to ignore lesbian and nonbinary voices. Being nonbinary is not a way to cope. It is not a choice. It is not a comfort label. Listen to nonbinary people when they speak. Listen to lesbians. Look at LGBT history and science. Think about how what labels you use reflect onto the community as a whole, and directly affect people who use the same label. ⁽ * ⁾ |
| Ok i can’t believe this needs to be said but under your new “nonmen attracted to nonmen” definition, lesbians who are strictly wlw don’t actually have an accurate term for our identity b/c lesbian doesn’t fit. You erased us until we don’t have an accurate term. That’s erasure. People are literally considering [it already happened.] making new terms because there are no safe spaces that actually only have wlw. So for those who think erasure doesn’t exist: We were literally traded for your validity. You got to fit the term lesbian perfectly under this definition, but now we don’t, and I’ve never seen any n-b lesbian supporter give two shits. Maybe consider us for once. ⁽ * ⁾ |
| Transgender |
|---|
| Transsexualism is not an identity. You don’t “identify” as transsexual. You just are. Identies are formed based on social influence of your peers, your age, your location, literally anything in the world can influence your identity. Identities are, shortly put, personalities and the way one associates themselves to the rest of the world. Identities are easily changed. I didn’t used to associate with the personality I have now, but I do anyway, why? Because identity changes. Identities are something that change with time as well. Someone who identified with the “emo” label in middle school eventually grows up, and their identity changes. Identity is ones sense of self and social appearance. One may identify themselves as a metalhead. Or a stoner. Or a skater. Or literally anything. Because identities are not something that is set in stone. Transsexualism is not an identity. By saying being trans is an “identity” you are admitting that its just a phase that will pass. Identities change and grow over time, transsexualism doesn’t. It is a constant part of trans peoples lives. It may take time to come to accept out transness, but it isn’t an ever changing self-definition. It’s a medical and neurological condition. Transsexualism is not ones sense of self, it is a side effect of the condition known as gender dysphoria that affects ones sense of self, perhaps, but the fact remains that it is a condition, and never, in the history of ever, has demedicalizing a serious medical condition ever helped anyone with that condition. Dysphoria is a condition. Dysphoria is not an identity.⁽ * ⁾ |
| Demedicalization. |
| Here in Denmark transsexualism has been removed from the list of mental disorders (nice job on that one Amnesty) and transgender individuals are having consultations about medically transitioning with doctors specializing in things like pedophilia or sexual disorders and let me tell you it does in no way, shape or form work. Here are no such things as gender clinics, gender therapy, etc. Most transmen choose to leave the country to get top surgery because the alternative is to wait 5 or more years to be considered for the surgery here as a result of the government closing private facilities who offered it. To get testosterone (legally, I know a few getting it illegally from friends in Germany) the doctors need to have a consultation with your parents even if you’re legally an adult, and their opinion on you being transgender can affect whether or not you’ll get a testosterone, you have to answers over 300 questions some even involving whether or not you think about your parents when you masturbate and other very personal and irrelevant information about how you masturbate, have sex, who you have sex with, how many people you have had sex with etc. Apart from all this, it can take over a year to finally be granted testosterone. In Denmark, we have a law that reassures that people only have to wait a certain amount of time before getting treated in our health care system, but guess what THAT LAW DOSENT FUCKING APPLY TO TRANS PEOPLE BECAUSE IT LEGALLY ISNT AN ILLNESS. We wait years for treatment. This is just a few examples from a place who don’t categorize it as a mental disorder, It’s so fucking humiliating to be transgender in the Danish healthcare system don’t let that happen to you. Having it de-medicalized or recategorized fucking sucks. When do y’all start listening to us and stop this fight? YOU ARE LITERALLY FIGHTING FOR A WORSE SYSTEM.⁽ * ⁾ |
| Dysphoria. |
| I’ve seen a couple people bring up the argument that you need gender Incongruence is needed to be trans, not necessarily dysphoria. Because GI is the disconnect and GD is distress from it. I agree, but how can you have a disconnect and not feel discomfort from it? What I mean is, how do you define disconnect? What does a disconnect feel like if not some form of discomfort/dysphoria about your gender. GD is what make trans people transition (socially or otherwise). Feeling some form of gender dysphoria is how trans people know they’re trans I just think, saying “you need gender inconsistence to be trans” and “you need gender dysphoria to be trans” are both true statements. Not one or the other.⁽ * ⁾ |
| wait til the tucutes find out that body dysphoria and gender dysphoria are 2 different things and you dont have to be uncomfortable or distressed by your body in order to have gender dysphoria aka gender incongruence cause theyre the same fucking thing. ^^^social dysphoria examples: a trans man being called madame or lady and ppl treating him like hes a girl would make him uncomfortable or disoriented or a trans woman being called sir or mister and ppl treating her as if she was a boy would make her uncomfortable or disoriented ^^^body dysphoria examples: a trans man looking at his body in the mirror and seeing breasts may feel disorienting or discomforting because in his eyes theyre not supposed to be there ^^^ its like if everytime you looked in the mirror there was a different face then the one you see when you think of yourself. ⁽ * ⁾ |
| You Need Dysphoria To Be Trans. Transsexualism is a biological disorder. Tucute ideology is harmful to young people trying to figure out their gender. Telling people that gender dysphoria is hating your body is dangerous and flat out spreading misinformation. Just because your dysphoria isn’t as severe as other peoples doesn’t mean that you don’t need to be dysphoric to be trans. Transsexualism is a disorder of brain chemistry, not a fucking identity.⁽ * ⁾ |
| technically speaking- you don't need dysphoria to be trans, because being trans is what causes dysphoria. to state it like the tucute vs transmed deal, you do need dysphoria to be trans, but dysphoria doesn't cause transgenderism - transgenderism causes dysphoria. being trans is caused by a chemical imbalance in the womb during development. this causes the brain to have a different sex or gender than the body. this can cause a discomfort or stress, otherwise known as gender dysphoria or gender incongruence. scientific research and studies prove that a transgender individual has a brain similar to their desired or true gender identity. this further proves that gender is NOT a social construct, and has loose ties and is based on sex. it also proves that being trans is not a choice, but a result of poor hormone sensitivity in the womb. "Possible scenarios underlying insufficient feminization. During normal feminization, sufficient estrogen is present in the fetal environment. The estrogen is recognized by fetal cells and triggers the development of a female fetus. In Scenario 1, very little estrogen is present in the fetal environment. Even though the fetal cells are capable of sensing estrogen, very little enters the fetal environment and the fetus is insufficiently feminized. In Scenario 2, there is enough estrogen in the fetal environment, but fetal cells are effectively “deaf” to the estrogen and the fetus is insufficiently feminized." so basically a summary since this is kinda messy: being trans is proven to not be something that a trans person chooses, and it causes gender dysphoria. so yes you do need dysphoria to be trans, and trans people are valid as proved by science. thanks. (source given) ⁽ * ⁾ |
| Euphoria |
| [in relation to transitioning only for dysphoria] it’s probably not going to end in the best outcome. people don’t get this treatment to feel “euphoric”— i don’t feel euphoric nor have i ever now that i think of it. i feel NORMAL. that’s the goal of these treatments. don’t transition if you think that transitioning is just guaranteed to make you happy 24/7. the point of this treatment is to make you feel comfortable by allowing you to correctly perceive your body/sex characteristics. if your goal is to have this feeling of “euphoria” your whole life, that isn’t going to happen. you’ll still get sad sometimes, just like anybody else. i’m way happier now than i was before. but before i wasn’t happy at all. i had nothing to be happy about because i could barely function. all transitioning did was put me on a level playing field with cis people. this is why the whole concept of “gender euphoria” just doesn’t really seem to hold up in my eyes. no person feels euphoric all of the time. but no one is supposed to have dysphoria. you can fix your dysphoria, you can’t actually force yourself to be happy forever. +++a good way to describe it is think about the feeling you get once you start feeling better after being sick for a while— you’re glad to be back to normal. you’re happy about it the morning you stop being sick and then you go about your life the way you did before you got sick.⁽ * ⁾ |
| and also no you cant be trans based solely on gender euphoria because gender euphoria is impossible without dysphoria. gender euphoria is the alleviation of gender dysphoria. ⁽ * ⁾ |
| Genderfluidity. |
| like? its impossible to have a fluid gender identity. the dysphoria might fluctuate from time to time but the brain's gender can't fluctuate, the human brain is scientifically and biologically unable to develop in a way where the gender is fluid, that makes genderfluid impossible. ⁽ * ⁾ |
| "Genderfluid" is inherently transphobic because brain structure can't shift, so it implies that gender is a choice. "Non binary" I could possibly get behind if there was some sort of weird birth defect that caused the brain to be not fully either way, but the concept of "gender fluidity" is just ridiculous. ^^^Exactly. Your brain can't shapeshift based on how you "feel that day". It's either incredibly transphobic or most likely just some sort of fluctuating dysphoria. ⁽ * ⁾ |
| ...dumbass NO it’s just that gender fluid is LITERALLY neurologically impossible unless you only change genders every 5 or so years, are under intense conditioning OR you’re in pain. +++ as in, literally always. for the brain to PHYSICALLY CHANGE GENDER on a daily/weekly/ect basis, would be EXTREMELY FUCKING PAINFUL. i am talking literal HOSPITALISING MIGRAINES. if it didn’t fucking KILL YOU ⁽ * ⁾ |
| Gender Apathy. |
| if you think you're non-binary because you "don't really think or care about your gender" you're cis. that is what being cis is. being comfortable in your body and gender. ⁽ * ⁾ |
| [in relation to gender apathy] "This is pretty much spicy cis. I’m cis and don’t care what pronouns people use for me bc I have NEVER been uncomfortable with my sex from birth. That’s why a lot of cis [people] don’t care It’s just a non-dysphoric flag. There doesn’t need to be a label. It’s just a cis flag" ⁽ * ⁾ |
| Nonbinary. |
| nonbinary isn't a gender out of the binary spectrum. First off, gender identity being a spectrum is only a theory that hasn't been confirmed to be right yet, but I'll explain it with the spectrum-theory.people often say that nonbinary must be in between male and female, it's in the middle of the spectrum, on one end is male and female on the other and nonbinary is just somewhere in between those. that is absolutely wrong and stupid. if gender really is a spectrum then nonbinary would be OUT of that spectrum. it wouldn't be somewhere on between or a mix or whatever. nonbinary would be in itself it's own identify, nonbinary is the term for anyone who does not have a brain-sex (gender identity) in the binary. that obviously would lead to the understanding of nonbinary not being in between male and female on the spectrum and more like being completely out of the spectrum, which is why it's NON-binary. for everyone saying gender is just a social construct and therefore I'm wrong, actually you're the one who's wrong because gender isn't socially constructed. gender roles are but the gender identity is simply based on the brain's sex, which is developed in the womb. for those who have a hard understanding of words. the sex that the brain has developed = gender identity. it's the same thing, just different terms for it. but back to nonbinary again, nonbinary also if often used as a umbrella term which is simply transphobic and disrespectful towards nonbinary people. nonbinary is a label by itself such as MTF and FTM. it's not a label for everyone who "just doesn't identify in the binary," it's the label for people with a lack of gender identity. it's not a third gender and its not an umbrella term because being nonbinary simply means not having a male or female brain-sex. term[s] such as genderfluid, bigender, agender [op made a mistake here in including the term agender because agender = no gender], etc. are not real at all, they're based on misunderstanding and misinformation of what nonbinary is. genderfluid, bigender, etc. are literally scientifically impossible because the brain's sex (the gender identity) cannot be fluid, it can't fluctuate and therefore those term are not a valid or real identity. agender simply is what nonbinary is, a lack of gender identity. so agender is simply the same as nonbinary and not a different thing at all. other labels that make nonbinary an umbrella term can also be outweighed with science that proves them to be impossible. ⁽ * ⁾ |
| Neurodivergency |
|---|
| autism doesn't affect your gender identity at all, it might affect your personal perspective on it but it'll never change your actual gender identity. stop bring autism and neurodiversity in this because that's literally ableist and disgusting. ⁽ * ⁾ |
| "autism affects gender" is simply based on the belief that gender is a social construct. gender isn't a social construct though, therefore autism doesn't affect anyone's gender identity in the way xenogenders, neopronouns, mogai, etc. claim it does. gender is based and developed in the brain, not in social constructs. autism or neurodiversity affect a person's view and understanding of social constructs. but with the fact that gender isn't a social construct, neurodiversity therefore doesn't affect it in [the] way people claim that it does. xenogenders, neopronouns, etc. are ableist because they claim neurodiversity for something that is only based on misinformation and misunderstanding of gender and the scientific and medical aspects and explanations of it. neurodiversity doesn't justify xenogenders, neopronouns, etc. because bringing neurodiversity is simply based on misinformation. gender is not a social construct. neurodiversity affect views and understanding of social constructs. gender though is not a social construct. and therefore not affected by neurodiversity. saying otherwise is ableist.⁽ * ⁾ |
| neurodiversity and gender. by a student that specialises the brain's development on sex and gender identity and the affect neurodiversity can have on it. so at first it's really important to be aware that gender roles and gender expression are socially constructed and based in society. though the actual gender identity has nothing to do with social construct because the gender identity is simply based on the brain's sex, which is developed in the womb. so a very common affect that neurodiversity brings is to be unable to understand and to also fit into socially constructed things, like gender roles. many neurodivergent people though confuse the gender roles we're forced in with the actual gender identity. gender identity and gender expression/roles have absolutely no connection. the important thing to mark here is that gender roles and gender expression are based on social construct and only exists in society. gender identity is based on medical and scientific aspects and backgrounds. that's where the misunderstanding often is. neurodiversity affect the understanding of the gender roles that are created by society but it has no connection to the gender identity that's completely and only based on the brains sex, aka. the gender identity. therefore its completely clear to say that neurodiversity itself has no affect on the gender identity of anyone, it only affect the socially constructed gender roles that we live in. that often causes a lot of confusion and misunderstanding, though brain scans have shown and revealed that the gender identity is completely based on the brain's sex and has no connection to any social constructs. ⁽ * ⁾ |
| [in response to xenogenders/neopronouns] it's ableist because a neurotyical person invented the neopronouns and xenogenders but used neurodiversity to justify them because at the time they were invested neurodivergent people were killed, arrested and tormented because nobody understood their brain development issues. it gave and still gives a even worse picture of what people display neurodiversity as, neurodiversity isn't an excuse for people to make in new genders/pronouns just because they don't understand the biology, science and history behind anything. they also go against the science that makes it possible for transgender people to get the treatment they need ⁽ * ⁾ |
| Extra |
|---|
| i swear to fucking god if y’all don’t realize that once this “pronouns ≠ gender” gets caught on by the general public people are going to say “i thought pronouns didn’t equal gender” every time they wanna misgender a trans person. DO YALL NOT REALIZE THATS GOING TO HAPPEN ?????? the EXACT SAME THING happened with the microlabeling and xenogenders that when the general public caught on, the “i identify as an attack helicopter” jokes started blowing up. STOP MAKING IT HARDER FOR TRANS PEOPLE TO BE ACCEPTED “they were gonna hate us anyway” ok but what about the people who are on the fence but tip over to the lgbt0hobic side bc they get overwhelmed by the radical inclusion. even if we ignore that...WHY WOULD YOU MAKE IT EVEN HARDER ??? u think it’s better to be hated than disliked? ⁽ * ⁾ |
| hesbians be like "we have more supporters bc we're right" no it's because the cishets following you don't care enough about lgbt history to actually do some research about our community. if it's blindly accepting whatever they're told, or doing research to have an actually informed opinion, which one do you think they'll choose? im so tired of them thinking they're better because they have higher follower counts. people just don't give a rats ass to actually research our history. that's literally it. ⁽ * ⁾ |
| so trans men don't get to talk on hesbians cause "we don't own male pronouns", enbies don't get to talk on hesbians cause they aren't lesbians, and lesbians don't get to talk on hesbians cause if they don't support them, they're "lesbophobic". who exactly gets to talk on it then? ⁽ * ⁾ |
| Now, using the logic of "use the label you're most comfortable with" I would have never stopped identifying as straight even tho I am not. I would have never got over my internalized biphobia. Does that seem like a good thing? Would you ever say to a gay man with internalized homophobia that its a-ok to be uncomfortable with using the word "gay" and that they can identify as someone else instead of addressing the issue? ⁽ * ⁾ |
| Worst part about mogai is that no one is actually going to sit here and here and announce being shitgender outside of twitter, when they get done playing with labels and mocking trans/nonbinary people they can go about their business and remove their CHOSEN labels but Trans people can't help or stop being trans and these people really sit here and only acknowledge whatever anyone in their mogai circle tells them rather than seeing things from a different perspective, it's embarrassing. Like have they ever thought of why they can't give any actual sources instead of sending fancams and doing all this extra shit looking like a damn clown ⁽ * ⁾ |
| why would you put a poll on the validity of someone's identity? because, we're trying to prove a point here, if a majority of the LGBT+ community thinks your identity is toxic, then it's probably really fuckin toxic. Y'all love bringing up cishets but refuse to see how your identity affects the rest of your community, your identity CAN be fucking harmful not only to you but everyone else around you and in your own community, would you really risk all these people's comfort for your own? and also, making sense to the cishets IS important, they run our country, they're the majority, while I don't support transphobes, homophobes, lesbophobes, biphobes and anything else of the sort, the mogai community and the erasure of historical labels is turning us into a joke. and while the cishets are somewhat important, if it's members of your OWN COMMUNITY, telling you something is toxic you should probably fucking listen, wether it be lesbians, bisexuals, gays, trans people, or anyone else, they all have a say and if A LOT of people feel invalidated by you, chances are you're invalidating asf, I'm not passionate about discourse because I want to bully people and be the gender police or whatever, I'm just tired of seeing people constantly being invalidated and forced out of their identity because it's being erased ⁽ * ⁾ |
| [in relation to mogai] To start, these orientations aren’t really required and often are used as ways to harm oneself, especially as an LGB[T] person with internalized lesbophobia/homophobia/biphobia or a person experiencing compulsory heterosexuality, this is a proven fact by the very high amount of LGBT people who have described the “MOGAI hells” they went through, or the times when they used MOGAI orientations and genders to cover their internalized issues instead of accepting their true orientation and gender. Many terms exist specifically to cover those feelings and act like it’s normal/healthy, there are also many orientations that exist to normalize harmful neurodivergency and trauma symptoms and encourage accepting these as part of your identity instead of learning coping mechanisms for these things or overall finding a way to live life that isn’t constantly painful. ⁽ * ⁾ |
miscellaneous.
bullying.
before you start crying that youre the victim, i know that inclusionists get sent death threats and doxxing and all that. but ive never seen that with my own two eyes. these are the ones ive seen. oh and by the way, every single person that was harassed (as of now) was a minor.
trigger warning? uhh intentional triggering, suicide mentions, rape mention, death threats, bullying, racism, every type of "phobia" under the sun i think.
and before you say "oh theyre anti-hesbian ! they deserve it !!" shut the fuck up. what the hell is wrong with you? no one deserves to be bullied, that causes mental health issues. it causes ptsd, it causes serious health concerns. bullying by one person can be extreme, but by this many people irl? it would be hell. and the fact that you cant physically harass them over the internet doesnt make it better. do you think minors getting bullied by dozens and sometimes HUNDREDS of people is good for their mental health? does it make them like you? does it make them want to agree with you?
all you do is make us hate you.
fuck off.
—————————⩺
a thread of people detailing how theyve been harassed.
video of people being harassed.
thread #2 of people being harassed.
thread number three !
video number two woop woop
radfem account to make exclusionists look back, misgendered exclusionists + rape threats ⁽ ¹ ⁾ ⁽ ² ⁾ ⁽ ³ ⁾
i dont have sources for this yet, but joy, the creator of vixenamoric, was doxxed, sent death threats, and gore/vore porn.
14 yo girl made fun of xenogenders, doxxed.
carrd that was sent to her
more doxxing: ⁽ ¹ ⁾ ⁽ ² ⁾ ⁽ ³ ⁾
suicide baiting ⁽ ¹ ⁾ ⁽ ² ⁾
triggering and saving/uploading an image of a minor ⁽ ¹ ⁾ ⁽ ² ⁾ ⁽ ³ ⁾
LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE BULLYING MINORS DO YOU NOT SEE AN ISSUE HERE ⁽ ¹ ⁾ ⁽ ² ⁾
rampant bullying of a minor ⁽ ¹ ⁾ ⁽ ² ⁾ ⁽ ³ ⁾
death threat, compared to anorexics
the ... wyrm guy.
ableist, death threats
threatening
art theft
"kys"
racism
racism
bullying
...these two.
homophobia
using another persons face in an argument. not really bullying but really fucking weird.
"kill urself weirdo"
misgendering
making fun of a panic attack caused by hesbians
enbyphobia/transphobia (?)
sending a minor porn (2)
misgendering
"no one loves you"
dont know what to call this but this is gross. sexualization of a minor?
bullying
racism, c slur
gore sent
homophobia, electroshock "therapy"
this disgusting shit. intentional misgendering, use of the r slur, f slur
related to one above, "slit your wrists," misgendering, f slur
intentional r slur, intentional f slur
transphobia, transmisogyny
"slit your wrists"
"hang yourself," t slur
EXTREME EXTREME NSFW IMAGE: SCAT porn sent
EXTREME EXTREME NSFW IMAGE: porn sent
NSFW IMAGE: HXH porn video sent. i dont know if the character is a minor or not. kurapika?
a thread
using someones face as their pfp, general harassment, causing a panic attack
NSFW IMAGE: SELF HARM sent and im not sure what to call it but relapse baiting? sending self harm too this ones just really bad
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dont think this matters as much but theres more tucutes telling truscum to die than vice versa.
didnt know where to put these.
vocabulary.
gay male
> a man that is attracted to men.
gay woman [lesbian]
> a woman that is attracted to women.
bisexual
> attracted to everyone. male, female and non-binary.
transgender
> a person that experiences incongruence and/or dysphoria with their assigned gender at birth.
non-binary
> a person that is not male or female.⋆
⋆ there are a few unanswered questions on this.
1) is non-binary a third gender ?
2) is non-binary only synonymous with agender/lack of gender ?
3) is non-binary an umbrella term ?
these questions have no set answer, but ill try and provide accurate resources to make you come to your own conclusion.
"stop invalidating me !"
> no one owes you validation. not everything is valid. and when your identity doesnt have a logical reason for it (factually, historically, etc), it becomes up for debate.
a few years ago, some furries were attempting to be part of the lgbt community because it is marginalized, and being a furry is marginalized. we all saw this as non-valid and moved on. when we stop "invalidating" people, we put down our gates and let everyone and everyone in this community.
"read this carrd please :("
> the mogai carrds (n-b lesbian, xenogender, etc), are not valid. there is no argument, theyre ridden with fallacies or misinformation, and every single point on that carrd can be debunked. hell, it has been debunked. dont waste our time with those then pretend they suddenly have worth. want us to understand? make a logical carrd, please. we'd all love to see it, seriously.
"your carrd is just opinion !! it doesnt have any sources !! its just as bad as ours !"
> just because some sources are from discourse doesnt mean theyre not factual. most are rebuttals against inclusionist ideology, analysis of sources, or psychological analysis's. and the rest are scientific studies/history so you cant really argue with that. those are fact.
exclus carrds have sources. the inclus carrds dont, and that is what makes them fundamentally different.
"you cant change me >:("
> if you cannot accept correct definitions and information, that is on you. not us. we hope you learn.
"i guess i dont exist then..."
> this is a fallacy, and a childish one at that.
your feelings are real, and so are your struggles. your label is the thing that doesnt exist. "i identify as a male mlm lesbian ... if you say im not real ig i dont exist ......" you hear how ridiculous that sounds, right?
"heh, im a [insert here] and IM not invalidated .. >:) take that, bootlicker."
> as if your feelings are the only ones that matter. for an example, some black men are so privileged in terms of money, class, and other factors like gender and physical/neurological ability that they dont care about racism. has all racism turned to dust then? i dont think so.
just because you dont think youre affected by it doesnt mean many others are. for every one trans man ive seen that doesnt care about something like h/h lesbians, i see 10 more that are invalidated everyday.
dont be selfish. have empathy.
"youre not a [insert here], you cant have an opinion on this !!! >>:0"
> haha. funny. if people never talked about problems that dont involve them, every single marginalized group ... wouldnt have rights. the lgbt community got its rights from its own members AND outsiders that sympathized with them. we all have to work together.
and have you ever heard a white person say that they dont support "BLM" because they "arent black so they have no opinion." isnt that a stupid fucking argument? or "i dont support gay marriage because im not gay so my opinion doesnt matter." cant you see how idiotic that is? im not trying to compare inclusionism to bigotry but im trying to draw a parallel here. thats a flawed argument.
a cisgender white scientist that conducted research on trans brains knows 10x more about gender than i do. and thats okay. you can be an expert on something and not be part of the community.
people that are part of a community that speak based soley on their experiences are good ! but people that are not a part that dont share those experiences but listen to the general consensus within the community, speak to reputable members and look onto research and fact are great !
yes, the ideal person to talk to will always be an educated [insert community here], but thats not everyone. listen to people that have experiences and people that have logic, 9 times out of 10 they know what theyre talking about.
you can use the "no [x] no opinion" argument all you want but keep in mind that includes people that agree with you <3.
oh yeah and this is a fallacy too lol
"more people agree with inclusionist ideas than exclusionist !! that makes us better !"
> firstly, numbers dont make things right. do you know how many millions of people are/were homophobic? especially in the 1900's. does this make it okay to call a gay person sick? of course not. ive seen terf tweets get hundreds of thousands of likes. does that make them okay? fuck no !
additionally:
(radical) inclusionists often use fear, intimidation, and misinformation to get their point across. its not that people agree, theyre too scared not to agree.
cult like mindsets ; the bite model (psychology) ; info about radical inclusivity
people are being scared into agreeing. this is a pretty improtant thing that allies should keep in mind.
also, specifically for cishets/cisgender people, a lot of misinformation is given to them in the name of radical inclusivity and making everything "valid." and when they get educated, they have buzzwords like "transphobe" and "lesbophobe" and "ableist" hurled at them, which makes them a lot less likely to seek out correct information.
the onus is on them to educate themselves, but its hard to be educated when the community is conflicting itself in the beginning.
"wikipedia isnt a valid source."
> neither is a carrd with no source but okay.
and wikipedia can be reliable, it is edited by fact checkers religiously.
"lesbophobe/homophobe/transphobe/panphobe/ableist/racist/terf !1!!1"
> weird how im over half of the groups that are affected in those buzzwords.
if you think that me saying star pronouns arent valid is terf rhetoric just wait till you see REAL terfs. ever heard of #droptheT ? thats the shit you should be calling out, not this.
if someone supports my ideas and you call them any of these, you are watering down the meaning of the word and making it harder to find the real bigots and call them out. its like saying that everyone that disagrees with me is racist. do you not see how much of a mockery of real issues this is?
you have no idea how much i hate this thing.
first off, please look in the transgender section for the source analysis. hell, read through the whole section. i think that can also be used to debunk this too.
and secondly, lets all agree somewhere. we all think that, at the very least, you need "gender incongruence" to be trans, right? okay, now lets continue.
+++ oh ! extra extra edit, ive just realized: the literal definition of transgender is to identify with another gender. so if your gender is different than your sex, and you have incongruence...thats 2/6 :)
american psychiatric association.
"The context of this paragraph is referring to when people typically learn they're trans. It is talking about gender dysphoria in children and adults. The question isn't "do all trans people experience dysphoria", it's "when do they" and trans people don't necessarily experience it all the time or "suffer" from it."
found in the "tucute rebuttal section."
world health organization.
that source is from 2016. and it has been updated. this is outdated, not valid evidence.
and please keep in mind, it mentions "a desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex" and "a wish to have surgery." the clinical diagnosis for gender dysphoria needs two of the six things mentioned, and two of those are "a strong desire to be treated as the other gender or an alternative gender" and "a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender." that old source is literally the same thing as gender dysphoria. so even though it says that you dont always need discomfort, it just highlights that gender dysphoria doesnt need a discomfort.
the new source from the icd-11 uses gender incongruence, but it still describes dysphoria. a "marked incongruence" is in the diagnosis for GD, and while it doesnt say it specifically, it is implied that even though it says trans people often medically transition to live as the desired sex, that also applies to socially. and it can be assumed that every trans person socially transitions, or wants to. which is again, a symptom of gender dysphoria. and thats two already.
and even if you disagree with that point...how can you experience incongruence with your gender and not tick at least two? if you feel a disconnect, but dont want to be the other gender, treated like the other gender, or not have the same genitals of your AGAB, thats not trans. trans is more than a disconnect. (^^ please go to the edit at the top too, i was having a bit of a brain fart </3)
there is also this fairly recent version of the icd-11 with more detail. this says the same thing. and to be two of those is to be two of the needed things for gender dysphoria.
american psychological association.
yeah. thats right. some trans people dont experience their gender as disabling. they still have dysphoria though.
american academy of pediatrics.
this is a policy. you can read more about how these arent sufficient medical sources below.
there isnt even one source here. really?
canadian paediatric society.
this is in reference to children. not adults or adolescents. this is specifically for children only, because there are different diagnosis's for children and adults.
i highly doubt that you are a pre-pubescent child. that source does not apply to you.
and its speaking only about bodies, not socially. this source isnt expansive enough to be used.
and the main reason why they might not experience distress is because they havent gone through puberty ! and thats when most dysphoria manifests !! even my dysphoria skyrocketed after puberty.
"but others may be very uncomfortable with their assigned sex, especially at the start of puberty when their body starts to change."
after puberty, this source cant be used for people. because after puberty, they start using the adolescent/adult criteria.
some people may have little, and maybe no, body dysphoria, but that still doesnt touch on social, mind, and every single type of dysphoria under the sun.
world medical association.
you already said that this was outdated, and it even shows so by the writing.
"The WMA asserts that gender incongruence is not in itself a mental disorder; however it can lead to discomfort or distress, which is referred to as gender dysphoria (DSM-5)."
but gender incongruence is medical. why on earth else would it be in the international classification of diseases then? its parent is even "conditions related to sexual health." its a condition.
the source also conflates gender expression and identity, which is incredibly harmful.
and...this isnt a medical source. this is just a statement. there isnt anything about science, or any backing behind this.
this isnt meant to be used medically, its meant to make them look good. the same way they have statements on gender equality. policies shouldnt be used as medical sources. this is an ethics thing, not a medical thing. despite it being a medical website.
world professional association for transgender health.
this is also a mission statement. this isnt a source, it isnt an analysis. even if this comes from a distinguished source, this is still a statement. nothing more.
"Nomenclature is subject to changes, and new terminology and classifications may be arrived at by various medical organizations or administrative bodies, but these events shall not in themselves change the meaning or intent of this WPATH statement." aka "the names can change, but this statement wont." the statement doesnt care about misinformation, the purpose is to say "yeah we're cool with trans people," not nit-picking over definitions. this source doesnt care about gender dysphoria, it just means to say that they are pro-trans and not anti.
keep in mind that this source also validates GD=GI ("The criteria currently listed for GD are descriptive of many people who experience dissonance between their sex as assigned at birth and their gender identity." that is, quite literally, gender incongruence.)
and i just want to add, the diagnosis for gender dysphoria states that if you have 2+ of the symptoms, in addition to "clinically significant distress or impairment in major areas of functioning, such as social relationships, school, or home life," you have dysphoria. but this "clinically significant distress" does NOT mean your dysphoria is disabling, or you hate your body.
from a medical standpoint, if you want to transition, that is already significant.
distress ; significance
significance is characterized as whether it manifests in real life. socially AND medically transitioning are already gender dysphoria manifesting in real life. so doing any of those already checks that requirement for GD.
having a discomfort/disconnect is dysphoria manifesting in real life. socially transitioning/social dysphoria is dysphoria manifesting in real life. medically transitioning/body dysphoria is dysphoria manifesting in real life. euphoria is dysphoria manifesting in real life because the serotonin spike is literally in your body. being affected in school because of gym class or bathrooms or deadnaming or misgendering is clinically significant, being affexted by deadnaming and misgendering at work is clinically significant,
there is a difference between clinical significance and general significance.
lastly here, even if you only meet one requirement (somehow), there are ... other types of dysphoria, you realize that right? i mean "unspecified" and "other." which is when your dysphoria is clinically significant but for whatever reason, you cant meet the diagnosis. you still have dysphoria.
you literally have it hdjhfkge what part isnt clicking-
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read all of this or i will steal something out of your house.
read all of this too or else im taking your fridge!!!
i dont even think youll read those two so just look at the bottom.
check out the bottom of this post too with the debunk
even ftm mag, made by and for trans people, says you need dysphoria.
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even more simplification so you cant fucking fight me on this.
q: what is gender incongruence?
a: having a disconnect between your birth sex and your gender (aka the sex of the brain).
q: what is the definition of transgender?
a: to have a different gender than your birth sex.
q: what are the symptoms of gender dysphoria in the dsm-v?
a:
marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics ; strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics ; strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender ; strong desire to be of the other gender ; strong desire to be treated as the other gender ; strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender
q: how many of those do you need to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria?
a: two or more, with a 6 month time span and "clinically significant distress."
q: what is "clinically significant distress"?
a: anything that manifests in real life. an example would be physical/psychological aversion to deadnaming, or binding/tucking. this is not synonymous with debilitating/disabling distress.
q: how is gender incongruence the same as gender dysphoria?
a: if you are transgender (being a different gender than your birth sex), and have gender incongruence (have a disconnect/ "marked incongruence" with your birth sex, and have had that for 6+ months, you have gender dysphoria.
the disconnect manifesting in real life counts as clinically significant distress, which is the first symptom, and the significance is the last symptom. being a different gender is the fourth symptom of gender dysphoria. that is already 3 of the necessary 2.
tldr ; gender incongruence is just gender dysphoria with less steps. its the same fucking thing guys come on.
you need dysphoria to be transgender. you dont need specifically body dysphoria, but you need some kind.
you need dysphoria.
literally just read all the sources in the trans section i cant stress this enough oh my god.
